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ardachie
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Posted Friday, April 23, 2010 @ 09:30 AM  

Motor,
you have identified a major problem with breeding polled cattle, many farmers don't know they have them or if they do they don't record them, so their use to the breed is nil. If you have a polled cow record her polled status please.

If anyone happens to breed a polled bull from a good family, let this forum know, we may be able to get him collected and used amongst interested breeders.

Unlike untailed cows, breeding polled cattle is possible now & not a pipe dream! What it needs is breeders being willing to use polled bulls in their herds, all it takes is to use them like PT bulls, then there will be polled animals throughout the breed.

Currently, Semex Canada are collecting a polled Senior son, Geordawn Carrel-P, who is out of a Vg 85 Brook from Geordawn Lester Collette-P Ex, next dam is also excellent, contact Jim Conroy if any of you may be interested in using this young sire. This is older genetics, but should leave sound cattle and a 50% chance of being polled(very low BW).

Cliff, we try to breed the tails on & the horns off, so not expecting any sales to your neighbour!!

cheers
Ardachie
Polled Jerseys
The humane choice
The future's polled!
NZ
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Posted Friday, April 23, 2010 @ 09:46 AM  

So the only way to actually get a polled herd is to get every animal to a PP status and then only use your own bulls or other PP bulls that you know of ? Even using a PP bull once will not promise any grandaughters that are polled.

What % of your herd is PP, now, Bruce after a century of using polled genetics ? Are they all polled yet ? Its been many years since I saw your herd and would love to again some day. Pity I am back milking cows again.

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ardachie
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Posted Friday, April 23, 2010 @ 10:45 AM  

Cliff,
that's right, using a PP will not guarantee any polled grand daughters.
I don't know how many of our cows are PP, maybe 5% of the herd. We do have about 75% of the herd that are polled, but looking at their pedigrees & and also recording if their calves are horned or polled I know that we don't have many homozygous PP animals. I could pay to have any probable PP cows Ingenity Tested, but at about $120 US a test I'll just use that on any bulls I think may be PP.

The reason we don't have as many PP animals is that we have used horned bulls in our breeding programme selectively since the 1970's. Before this the herd was closed and all the animals were polled and the majority would have been PP animals.

cheers
Ardachie



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Posted Friday, April 23, 2010 @ 10:22 PM  

ardachie, what is the story on A. Luca P-is he available? and do you know anything about Alanlin Landy Gensis P?
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Posted Friday, April 23, 2010 @ 11:26 PM  

Maack Dairy ECLIPSE-P is worth a shot although not many daughters yet
also came across Fairway Mygent DALLAS-P = Homozygous Polled
so ALL calves are polled from DALLAS-P and his dam is EX 90, gdam is EX 91 and both are polled

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ardachie
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Posted Saturday, April 24, 2010 @ 08:29 AM  

Hi Stoned,
Ardachie Luca P is a son of Fairway Topkick Deacon P. He is being collected currently & I have an order from the US for him from a group of grazing dairy farmers who want grassland genetics and also polled in the mix.

He is out of a polled Van der Fits Fjord daughter, a typical NZ round short type of grazing cow. She topped the herd 5 years ago, she scorded GP4, so a little plainer and has an all NZ pedigree.

Luca is a very big rising 4 bull, he is well put together and his first daughters have also grown well and will be in milk in August. He is wide, long, has good feet and legs and a good temperment. The Deacons added a lot of size and milk to our cattle. I will use him here and he is a nice fit for a lot of our cattle and a compliment to the polled Lovabull son we have here as our junior herd sire.

The Alanlin Landy Genesis-P bull comes from Ohio (off an Amish farm) where there is a group of breeders using their own bulls with in a group coordinated by Dr John Reber a Veterinarian and Jersey breeder. They call themselves the North Coast Group. They have a focus on polled animals, using older cows with good actual longevity and production as bull mothers, higher tests than is usual for US Jerseys. They us a lot of High Lawn and Ogston bred genetics in their programme. The polled genes come from the older polled bulls such as Normsland Belle Boy P, Fair Weather Cash PP, Fair Weather Superb Generator-P. The Genesis bull is sired by the NZ bull Beledene Dukes Landy, a Larmona Roz Duke son from the Revells in Hawera, 'Glenbrook country'. They are a "Purebred" herd, so that there is a polled son of this bull is unusual. The dam of Landy was a long lived cow, about 15 lactations & the bull was purchased by Doug Martin who imported the Landy semen to the US.

cheers
Ardachie
Polled Jerseys
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The future is polled!
NZ
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Posted Saturday, April 24, 2010 @ 10:18 AM  

Does someone somewhere have a list of all the PP bulls from all round the world or better yet a semen bank filled with at least 10 straws of each of these bulls so when a PP cow comes though there is something to mate her too ?

How many cows like your Polly [ hope I've remembered corectly ] are there that started the polled gene in the Jersey breed ?. I've only heard of polled Jerseys in the US and NZ and never heard of any on the Island.

I wonder how and where they suddenly appear from ? Is it all a graded up line from an Angus or Red Polled or simliar polled breed ? Will the genomic test you were telling us about be able to tell which breed the polled lines started from ?

Its all very interesting. Thanks for starting this thread and answering all our questions.

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Posted Saturday, April 24, 2010 @ 11:15 AM  

thanks Adarchie, and everyone, all interesting stuff. It was the dominant gene part that got me interested, makes you think it can happen.Even if just Pp cows and bulls get more use, there will at some point be a PP bull turn up.The biggest boost it could get now would be to find these cows(Pp), and had I realised the gene was dominant I'd have taken more notice which calves we didn't dehorn! after that they vanish in to the group totally forgotten.
If we are going to use bulls like Action (low figures) so heavily surely there is a place to use some of these P bulls. As Sprunty and others say, Eclipse P looks promising, but a gamble at 24 D's. Still 600= lts isn't to be scoffed at, he probably won't be a dog.Fairway Mygent Dallas p is starting off with high parent averages, so I guess you have to make your own mind up where they will finish,but it probably won't be negative (you'd hope).Theres potential there,it just needs some creditablity, to be fleshed out as they say, something to make it 'real/ acceptable'.
ardachie
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Posted Saturday, April 24, 2010 @ 06:55 PM  

Glenbrook,
it certainly has been assumed by some people that the polled gene has come from the beef breeds. The technology is now there to prove of disprove that theory. Looking at the NZ proven bulls of the last 20 or so years there will be more anomolies than that if using DNA technology to prove origins is given a priority (it won't I can assure you!).

The polled cow Poley P that my grandparents chose to work with was a grade Jersey, how she came to be polled we don't know.

There were polled Jersey cattle amongst the St Lambert lines 100 years ago. There was also an early polled bull in NZ named Polled Prince.

The main US sources of the polled gene are the 1960's bull Normsland Belle Boy-P, his descendents include Maplerow Mercury Aron-P, a former living lifetime record holder, 311000 lbs of milk in 17 lactations, she provides the polled gene to Fairway Topkick Deacon-P. Belle Boy-P also provides the polled gene to Mack Dairy Eclipse-P through D&E Henry-P. Belle Boy is also close up in the pedigrees of Duncan & Royal, and cows such as Observer Althea Anna, dam of Midnight Blue.

The other main source of the polled gene in US Jerseys is Fair Weather Superb Generator-P, bulls such as Lyon Pride Lynx-P get their polled status from him. Yankee Chief's dam was also polled. Opportunity-P also descends from him, so Forest Glen Hallamrk Kirk-P is a current descendent.

Other than Dallas-PP, the only other known current PP bulls are all in the North Coast bred cattle, which are only collected for domestic US use.

The first thing anyone considering using polled cattle is to use polled bulls. Alos try to get the polled gene into better cow families.

cheers
Ardachie



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Posted Saturday, April 24, 2010 @ 09:36 PM  

Haven't heard about any St Lambets blood being polled. Do you know the name of the polled animal ?. I have a few old US Jersey articles about St Lamberts blood.

Normsland Belle Boy is indeed the 3rd sire behind J S Quicksilver Royal he being a SS Quicksilkver of Fallneva x Observer Chocolate Soldier x Normsland Belle Boy. Belle Boy had several thousand daughters in the US and was a widely used bull on AI. However there was a question mark on him as when the purebred society started up in NZ they didn't allow Royal into herd book because of Boy being behind him. Surely he wasn't a mutation and one of his ancestors, all of whom are registered in the US herd book must have been polled for him to be polled. In fact if I've read everything you've written here either his sire or dam had to have been polled for him to be. [ Or do I have that wrong ]. He was sired by Couragous Atlas who was a well known bull [ had a bit to do wiith Briarcliffs stud ] out of Coras Brookside Belle. The descendants from the Briarcliffs daughters of Belle Boy read like a whos who of the US Jersey breed. A great pity that the polled gene did not carry on though them. Navara of course has this blood too.

Yankee FW Chief is an interesting bull. He has at least 4 cross's on both sides of his pedigree from Lads Courageous who is the sire of Courageous Atlas. Assuming that Courageous Atlas was polled [ to make Belle Boy polled ] then we could also assume that Lads courageous was also polled and the odds that Chief wasn't polled must have been small. As a couple of people have already said here its a pity that not all polled animals have been recorded. Lads Courageous top line goes back to Xenias Sultan x Fly Sultan x Oxford Sultan of Oaklands all of whom I think were horned so the polled gene must come in from the female side somwhere in the previous 3 generations behind Courageous. Bit like being a dectitive studying pedigrees.

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Posted Sunday, April 25, 2010 @ 07:26 AM  

Looking back about 35 years, one of the cows that stick out most in my mind was a Normsland Belle Boy in the Shadewell herd of George Ricker in Vermont. Even today she would be the type of cow I strive to develop. Even with his test I may reconsider using Deacon on a limited basis. Watching Eclipes closely as he gets more daughters. I know his type will drop (see TBone) but hope he will still be a top bull (see TBone).


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Posted Sunday, April 25, 2010 @ 09:29 AM  

Something you may find interesting is this danish page abouit Highland farms. Lots of pictures. Nothing to do with the polled thing but I found it while researching polled cows.

http://daic.dk/index.php?page=index&id=1568

Because the polled gene is dominant and simple , a polled animal is either PP or Pp. A horned animal can be nothing other than pp. Then every time we find a polled animal one or both of its parents must have been polled.

Therefore it should be a fairly simple thing to trace the polled gene back from any polled animal especially when the animal was famous but could be very hard when the animal was obscure. The good thing is that dehorning only really came into fashion about 40 years ago and so any old photos than that will still have the horns on if they have them. Process of elimination, if you find an ancestor with horns on in a photo then it wasn't the polled gene carrier and you have to look elsewhere. I'm hoping Dr Charles Wallace reads this forum as he has a collection of around 3000 old Jersey photos, may be more by now.

The genomic test would be very interesting just to see what the ancestry was if as Bruce said you could tell if any animal went back to Jersey Island on dams side. If you did it on the upgraded cows in Jersey herd book you would find most of them going back to a Shorthorn female line as over 80% of the cows in NZ were Shorthorn prior to 1920. But doing a test on the few polled lines would tell if they all go back to one particular animal or are from different lines.

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ardachie
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Posted Sunday, April 25, 2010 @ 09:56 AM  

I think that Belle Boy's dam, Cora Brookside Belle would most likely be the polled parent. Courageous Atlas was a High Lawn bred bull and Lads Courageous stood at the High Lawn, so if the polled gene came through that sire line then you would have expected to see many more polled animals around.

The Chittendens initally sourced their polled cattle from Hendersonville Tennessee, Stanley Chittenden along with Doc Malnatti (Bush River) bought polled cattle in the late 1940's from the Anderson family (I think). Karin Couch will know a lot more about this.

Will have to dig around to find the info on the St Lamberts.

cheers
Ardachie



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Posted Sunday, April 25, 2010 @ 01:21 PM  

Been looking thru my old Jersey photos. Amazing how great some of those cows from 100 years ago look. Anyway been looking for photos of cows and bulls without horns which of course doesn't mean polled but might.

St. Mawes Pretty Lady 432698 certainly looks polled to me rather than dehorned. The photo of her I have has her looking at the camera. She was the 1922 Senior 2 year old champion producer. The ST. MAWES line is very famous in jersey breeding circles.

The only other one I've seen so far is from 1945 and they may be dehorned but there is a group of a bull and his 3 daughters none of whom have horns in the photos. Marges Golden Chief was the first Medal of Merit bull and his three qualifing daughters.

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Posted Sunday, April 25, 2010 @ 06:12 PM  

Article from the 2005 US J ersey Journal about polled stock. Should be of interest to everyone interested in this topic

http://jerseyjournal.usjersey.com/Article%20Archive/Genetics/Polled%20Article.pdf

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Posted Sunday, April 25, 2010 @ 09:27 PM  

yeah, interesting GG. Checking for horns should be a priority for every one and perhaps should be promted as such.
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Posted Tuesday, April 27, 2010 @ 09:32 PM  

Good luck to those of you who try the polled path. I am afraid I have enough trouble trying to perfect the balancing of type and production traits as it is without adding another obsticle. That said if a polled bull does come up that can offer what i am looking for then I would use him for sure.


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Posted Wednesday, April 28, 2010 @ 08:57 PM  

yes, i was reading a few comments about how frustrating it can be to get them on the ground. Even two Pp's can still give you a pp. anyway hopefully a good bull will emerge, and that will only happen if the breeding goes in to it to make it happen.
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Posted Thursday, April 29, 2010 @ 05:23 PM  

Perhaps some should have used cscharrisonP not the worst bull going around.With limited use I haveseen a really lovely young cow Now in use in India

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Posted Thursday, April 29, 2010 @ 08:46 PM  

yes, Almervista, God bless him, did try to find me some. Polled genetics do suffer from a bit of a negative image problem don't they? I have inquired before now as to what the trade offs are-already displaying that " it's not popular, why not ?" attitude. The first responses were not favourable , but it's not until you scratch a bit deeper that you find there is potential. It won't happen over night for sure. Almervista also has some nice Harrison P daughters, and the breeding game what it is , had they showed up earlier would have done him the world of good. As I've said,there is plenty of low figured bulls getting use, and even popstars like Action are beginning to see cracks emerge in their armour.There is room for the ' P' bulls.Even better a 'PP'.
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Posted Thursday, April 29, 2010 @ 10:43 PM  

Stoned I used Harrison as I use all of Central sires young bulls being a director. I got 2 heifers with 1 being handy the other not so handy.
Harrison Ellous 84 points PI 2yrs 83 3yrs 86 stayed because she held embryos. Her dam 90 points , 9 lactations PI range 100 to 114. Next dam 90 pts 10 lactatioons all over 100 PI.
The better one being Harrison Naomi 88 points, PI 2yr 106 3yrs 91. dam 88 ppints huge production cow top the herd for total solids one year. Only a small sample just in my herd so not much to go on . Yes Almervista does have some very good ones i have seen them. I may well have had the only bad one.
The cracks in Actions armour are yet to appear here, milking 12, 2 and 3 yr olds PI ave 104 herd ave 98. Just goes to show what happens in your own herd does not always reflect what the proof says should happen!
I discovered 8 polled calves in the calf shed yesterday while dehorning. Small problem though they are all Angus/Jersey cross. Was interesting though because all 11 Angus cross calves have been polled but all dams are horned. From some of the info in the above posts I am a little confused. Does this mean the sire must be (PP) ?


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Posted Friday, April 30, 2010 @ 10:29 AM  

The Angus breed is a polled one. That means they all carry the PP gene.

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ardachie
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Posted Sunday, May 30, 2010 @ 04:18 PM  

Hi everyone,
if you want to breed polled Jerseys then you need a plan.

1. In an ideal world there would be good PP bulls available, at the moment there aren't. They need to be bred, so I'm getting our polled Den-Kel Lovabull-P son of Lemvi Paula-P tested for homozygousity through Merial Igenity in the USA. He's a nice strong, open tallish bull with a good nature & a rising 2, if he is homozygous polled we will get him collected.

2. Use polled young sires, use like any other young sire, if there was a polled young sire you like you could flush him to a really good cow. Having the polled gene in good cow families will help the long term credibility of polled animals.

3. If you have a good polled cow, let people know, try & breed a good polled son with the traits you think are important.

4. Ask AI studs to sample polled bulls & then use them.

5. It does take time & effort to breed good polled cattle, hang in there & keep at it!

cheers
Ardachie
Polled Jerseys
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The future's polled!
NZ

wallacedale
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Posted Monday, May 31, 2010 @ 11:28 AM  

Adarchie you do need a plan and yours sounds simple enough to aim towards. Might be a good idea while having tests done on the young sire to get a genomic test also. Could give you and others more confidence one way or the other as to how heavily you would use him. I know it is not 100% but if he came up high more people would take a punt and use him. If it came up really low well you could save yourself and others a lot of time and effort and try another young sire. When you do come up with a young sire that has all the indications of graduating with a solid proof I will be happy to give him a go. Thinking about using some of the Mack Dairy Ecclipse bull.
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Posted Monday, May 31, 2010 @ 10:49 PM  

Ardachie I agree with Luke. Get him tested for a genomic rating as this is the latest Selling Tool of the day.
being Homozygous Polled would also be a great marketing asset for this youngster.
I have some cows mated to polled semen and intend using a lot more in the future.
It would be good if AI companies had some polled young sires in OZ to prod. test

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Posted Wednesday, June 2, 2010 @ 10:12 AM  

Yes, I do plan to have him genomically tested at the same time.

Bruce

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Posted Thursday, July 15, 2010 @ 03:53 PM  

Maack Dairy Eclipse-P is beng marketed by WWS in NZ so would think he'll make it Oz also. Well worth a look (Action X Henery-P), maternal descendent of Duncan Belle.

cheers
Ardachie
Polled Jerseys
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The future's polled!
NZ

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Posted Thursday, July 15, 2010 @ 04:51 PM    MSNM

Yep Eclipse P is being brought in, first lot is sold out so if you want it it will be on backorder

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The Future is POLLED



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Posted Thursday, July 15, 2010 @ 09:37 PM  

Indeed, he is winging his way to the Western District as we speak, hope to have mine tomorrow, Monday at the latest.Pity we are already in to our 2nd 21 days.I 'd love to know how many that was to be sold out?...now if some of you guys with the dams of sires would use him....!!! A polled top bull....I'd like to see that.

[Edit by Stoned on Thursday, July 15, 2010 @ 09:38 PM]

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Posted Friday, July 16, 2010 @ 11:54 AM  

Stoned have some being delivered today and plan to join a group of cows that I flushed recently to him. Had a great flush result so figure I can take a gamble and put him in a few good cows.
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